[gentle orchestral fanfare] ♪ Good evening, ladies and gentlemen.

Susan Ellis is a graduate of the university at Chapel Hill in Radio, Television, and Motion Pictures.

She's been engaged in a very interesting enterprise, traveling around the world, looking at social issues, and tonight on "North Carolina People," we're gonna meet and talk with her about her very special undertaking that involves your interest and mine in North Carolina.

We're gonna meet and talk with her in just a few seconds.

(male announcer) Sponsored in part by... ...helping North Carolina people realize their financial goals since 1879-- and through the financial contributions of... ...who invite you to join them in supporting UNC-TV.

[gentle flute and piano lead strings] ♪ Ladies and gentlemen, I'm back here at the beginning of this program again to say two things.

I want you to look at a clip from a film Ms. Ellis has made called "Certain Proof: A Question of Worth."

I hope you'll take time to really look so that when we talk with her, you'll have a fresh understanding of what we're trying to say.

[engine noise] [sparse piano notes fading] ♪ (girl speaking laboringly) (woman) All right, you have a good day, OK?

Bye!

(Kay, voice-over) (woman) When I saw Kay, I really did become concerned because she is so dependent on someone to do practically everything for her.

How am I gonna meet her needs with 119 other people?

Big parts of me went, "I have no clue what's goin' on.

What am I gonna do?

How am I gonna do this?"

We knew she was gonna have an aide.

I was sort of trying to think in a thousand different directions how this was going to work.

(Kay, voice-over) (Corbino) I didn't know how she was gonna do science at all.

That was my biggest thing.

What would we do when we got to experiments, when we were doing anything that required, obviously, her to think about things-- could she?

(Corbino in classroom) Those two people are the person you're-- (Kay, voice-over) Well, Susan, good of you to come and join me on "North Carolina Pe ople."

Thank you; thanks for having me.

Good to have another graduate back on the program right here in the same room where you used to do your academic work!

Absolutely.

When did you get so excited, though, about being a film producer?

Well, I was, um-- I had a love for theater when I was younger, and, uh, as I did that through high school-- Actually, I came to a summer camp that was here in Swain Hall, uh, where I learned all the ins and outs in a week of, uh-- of production, and I just loved it.

It was a lot like theater in that you worked with a team and, uh--and the-- there was a creative spirit to it that I've just-- was really excited about.

Well, in most recent years, now, I-- I've been tracking you, uh.

What were you doing in Peru?

Well, about--yeah, when we started our--our business-- it was before we started our business, actually-- we left some corporate jobs producing, um, more corporate work and--and--and advertising and decided that we wanted to maybe do a little-- something that was a bit more soul-enriching.

And, uh, we decided to go to Peru to volunteer, and because we didn't speak Spanish, we decided, well, maybe we should do something else [chuckling] because we can only communicate so much nonverbally, um.

So we offered to make a-- a, um, documentary-- a short piece for this organization, CARE, which, of course, is an international...

Yes?

...nonprofit that supports, um-- or tries to alleviate poverty around the world.

And so we went down there and did this...documentary, and at this point, you can do that on a laptop with a small camera, and you know, that's been a big change in our industry.

So it--it-- it made it possible for us to do this very cheaply and quickly, and we handed it over to CARE, and they started using it on their Delta in-flight, um, programming.

So we were surprised because it was just this small program that we had made, and it was making a difference to an organization the size of CARE's.

And, uh, we were excited about the work they were doing, and that--and as we learned about more nonprofits, we found out that there's really interesting stories out there that need to be told.

Now, right there's where you got a serious exposure to disadvantaged children, was it--was it not?

mm-hm Yep--yeah, we did.

It was, uh-- we worked in-- in an orphanage and also kind of a-- a day center where children would come and the elderly would come, uh, for meals and--and-- and as a place just to be when they weren't in school.

And, uh, we--we, uh-- we met them.

We'd play with them; we just experienced their joy.

I mean, they are-- as underprivileged as they are, there was, um, a human joy that, I think, touched us all.

Now, you went on then to Costa Rica, the next adventure.

What was that about?

Well, we produced a-- a pilot for a television program that, um, promoted international volunteerism that'd made such a big difference in our life.

We just wanted more Americans to consider going overseas for a little while to see how other people live and to, you know, expand their view of the world.

Well now, all of this is background to-- I refer again to the clip we just saw from this film that, uh, you have put together, uh.

It's the story of three children and their efforts to go to school.

It's a remarkable story, and, uh, it's the story of cerebral palsy, but, uh, more than that, Susan, I-- the fact that this film has now been officially recognized in five different film festivals all over the country and the world, uh-- there's a substance to this film that's really important.

Now, uh, how did you focus in on North Carolina and Josh and Colin and-- what was her last name, uh, Kayla?

Kay.

Kay and, uh-- they're such interesting studies.

How'd you find these children?

Well, we were initially commissioned by a group called the New Voices Foundation.

New Voices is an organization that's trying to develop resources and even a-- a center for assessment for these children with multiple disabilities-- communication and mobility disabilities, um, that would give them the therapies they need and the tools that they need to survive in the public schools.

And when we talk to them about, really, raising money to build the school, which is-- A lot of the work that we do are these fundraising videos.

We said, you know, the bigger problem here is that we can-- we can tell a compelling story about these kids, but nobody knows about them, and we need to create a bigger story.

We need to create a larger understanding of who these kids are and-- and the experience that they're having, and it's more than we can do in a seven- or eight-minute video to raise money.

And, uh, so the New Voices Foundation helped us identify three children all at critical stages in their education, uh.

Josh was about five or-- he turned six, actually, when we were shooting initially, so he's just starting school.

(Friday) What--what school was he in?

(Ellis) He--they were all Wake County schools, and I wish I could remember.

He's switched schools several times, and I can't remember exactly which one it was.

(Friday) He was the youngest of the three.

(Ellis) That's right; yep, he was the youngest, and then, um-- so that's obviously a really important moment.

What--how are they accepted into the schools and--and, um, what are the, um-- what assumptions that are being made about them by-- by the school?

(Friday) And by the fellow students.

That's true.

I got the biggest kick out of your telling about Kay and her sense of humor, that she just would go right at 'em.

Yeah, we met Kay right as she was making that transition into middle school, and she's a-- she's a pretty special girl.

She's hilarious, actually-- very smart.

And, um, that-- and that was a--a big-- an important moment for her because it was that transition to middle school which, you know-- "Elementary is one thing, but I don't think you're gonna make it."

And I think Sandy, her mother, heard that, you know, a hundred times, and, uh-- and had to tell 'em that they were wrong about Kay, and-- and she certainly has proved them-- proved them wrong.

She's a straight-A student still today.

(Friday) How 'bout-- go back to Josh a moment.

What's happened to him since you've been tracking his career?

Josh is very interesting.

He's, um-- he doesn't have the means to communicate in complex ways.

He's starting now-- I think he's age ten-- to, um, use very simple devices, and you know, he's really now-- just now has a very clear yes/no, um, which is, you know, pretty hard to believe, I think, for most people who aren't around these kids, um, but it's extremely significant.

I mean, he's-- he's definitely here.

He understands, um.

How do you get your body to communicate your-- what your mind is thinking if you don't have control of your body-- if you can't speak it?

And, um, I think he really-- through him we really have to consider, What is communication, and how do we communicate, and how do we relate to one another?

Well now, what about Colin today?

Colin is, um--he is... in middle school now, um.

He--when we first met him, he was in a typical classroom some of the time.

He is now in an isolated classroom because that transition to middle school was not as successful for him, and when we met him, he was in third grade, which is when literacy becomes a--a big deal, and, um--and being able to keep up the workload and the output that's expected from students, um, becomes much greater.

And so it--it-- you know, from that moment, we could tell it was gonna-- we weren't sure what was gonna happen with Colin because he was-- he was struggling physically to keep up, and it's very difficult when you meet a child with such significant disabilities to know whether or not they understand and the depth that they understand if physically, it is difficult for them to communicate the basics, so, um, I think that's where his teachers were struggling.

I think it's where his parents are struggling, and they still struggle with that.

How much of an issue, Susan, was it to have the child accepted in the school the way you wanted it to be... or the parents wanted it to be or to give the kid a fighting chance?

How hard is that?

I think the parents have to do a lot of fighting to help them get in that classroom.

I think that when they're in the classroom, uh, it could go either way, you know.

I think with Kay, Kay had the ability to-- she has a little bit of a voice.

She could actually, you know, speak in-- in not entirely understandable ways for most people, but for those that knew her, she was an-- you know, she-- she could show you that she was very intelligent.

And so it doesn't take long for Kay.

Once she gets into that classroom, she proves-- she proves them wrong.

She shows them how smart she is.

She shows them that she hasn't been successful because someone's been passing her through.

She's earned every A that she's gotten, um.

With Colin, I think there was a real struggle, um.

His teachers were uncomfortable.

His typical teacher didn't know how to help him.

I think there's a-- you know, every teacher wants to help their students learn, and how do you teach a student who can't respond to you to let them know what they're thinking and what they know, um?

So I think, at some point, they become overwhelmed.

They don't have the tools or the knowledge to-- to really teach them well, and that actually is what New Voices is trying to do also is to help those-- not only to help the kids, but to help the teachers on the other side who are trying to support the kids.

And it's that understanding-- it really-- They have to meet both ways.

Dr. Stedman's kept me fully abreast on New Voices and Miss McMillan, and, uh, it's a marvelously creative organization, uh.

In this experience, you must be impressed with the fact that these young kids have an enormous drive or will.

Do you see that in them all the time, and, uh, it must be put to the test over and over again-- just give up, you know-- but they fight on!

It's an amazing story.

It is; it is amazing.

They--our film is called "Certain Proof" because these children have to prove themselves over and over and over again, and it is a test of will.

It's--it's, um-- And certainly there are days when I don't think they feel like proving again what they know and what they don't know.

It's physically exhausting for them to do that.

So, um... yeah, they--every one of them is incredible.

The amount of work they have to do in their head because they can't use their hands and they can't speak-- I mean, just think about learning how to read.

It helps if you can sound out the words, and so that-- and when you do math, it helps to have your fingers to count on, and they don't have those things.

So...to have the desire to work so hard to answer a question that then is going to be questioned by your teacher if you really understand what it is that you just answered or maybe you were just guessing, you know, it's incredibly exhausting for them, and I think that that's really what we want people to think about when they watch the film.

Do you need proof?

How much proof do you need to accept this person as a human being who's sitting here trying to learn and-- and able to learn?

How many Joshes and Colins and Kays are there in North Carolina that you know about?

Well, cert--New Voices has identified about 250 just in this immediate five-county area.

The Wake County area.

Yeah, um, but there are, you know, one or two probably in every elementary school, um, and middle school, and many times at third grade, they're taking, or-- when that-- those literacy skills, um, become more challenging and the schools have a harder time keeping up with them, a lot of the kids end up being homeschooled just because they don't have the resources or the understanding to teach them.

So, um, it's, uh, difficult to keep a good count on all those kids, but it-- it's impacting every school district for sure.

Is the work, then, at New Directions and you and the film all-- do you have a sense that we're beginning to get a greater acceptance of what needs to be done in the public school structure?

Gosh, there's so much that can be done within the public schools to help these kids and all kids, really, in terms of creating a--a curriculum that meets kids where they are and that accepts the fact that we all learn a little bit differently.

I think we know that there are-- I think we've been talking about that in education for a long time, but if we can learn how to teach these kids, we've learned a lot of wonderful things about how to teach all children, and I think, you know, teach this child to read is gonna help... every child learn how to read when you figure out those skills.

I was talking to Sandy just a little a while ago about Kay.

One of the things that she struggles with is that...even though she knows a skill, you know, when you-- when you take a test, you often have to do the same kind of problem over and over and over again, it just looks a little different.

Well, for Kay, that's a really big deal to have her go through that over and over and over again.

Physically, it's difficult, and for Sandy, it's difficult, too, because she ends up [chuckling] having to do all the written work, um, but, uh, you know, come up with a way to use technology to our advantage so that we-- so that the computer senses, OK, she understands this.

Let's move on to the next section.

Let's move on to something more complicated.

Let's challenge her in this way, or she's not getting this.

Let's take her back and go a different way.

I think that we're not quite there with technology, but it's-- it's gonna come.

I think we need to think about the whole population of students out there.

One of the things that struck me in this material is the issue of the acceptance of the fellow student.

mm-hm In some cases good, some cases fearful.

It's the whole spectrum of human emotion almost, isn't it?

Yes, it is; yes, it is.

I was really touched, um, at--at Kay's school.

You know, junior high is not easy for anybody... No.

and, uh, to see... that--the-- her friends there really, you know, supported her, accepted her, understood the fact that they didn't always understand what she was saying, and they went with it, and it was OK. And she, uh--she was very supported, I think, um, by--by several students there, and that was wonderful to see.

You know, the farther we take these kids out of the typical classroom, the harder it is for them to-- to gain that understandance -- understanding and acceptance by their fellow classmates, and I think, you know, the less time they're in that general ed classroom is-- is when there is greater discomfort.

You've had a wealth of experience, almost hands-on experience here.

If you were writing it out, what next steps would you say the schools need to take, should take, or ought to take--whatever.

Would the first one be just a-- a really clear identification and therefore an acceptance and therefore a joint undertaking?

Yes, I think so.

I think it's difficult in the system as we have it in the public schools right now.

I mean--it's... [inhaling] they're doing their best with the tools that they have, and you know, there's really not enough, um-- there aren't-- there are not enough supports to give these kids the scaffolding that they need while they're in school, and so, you know, you have to, first of all, recognize that, that they're trying, but they also don't know what they don't know, and there are kids-- You know, these are really complicated kids and, um, that even their own doctors, their own therapists don't-- are still understand-- coming to understandings about them.

And so this is information that the schools need and that we should be working together on with them, and they can--you know, working with outside providers as well to really create, you know, just a-- a individualized education plan for each of these kids that makes sense for them given their disabilities and their abilities.

I read where you had such a-- an enormous response when they screen at one of these film festivals.

What do people ask you most about this project?

I think they're very curious about these kids.

I just think they-- you know, we don't have any exposure to them, and I think the children, um, inspire them to think about communication and-- and to, perhaps, change their assumptions about anyone that they know of that has a severe disability, uh.

That's--that's been the biggest response.

mm-hm Now, there are lots of people watching this program, and I'm sure there are some there who wanna know more of what they can do.

Now, how does one get in touch or catch up with you?

What--what do I do?

Well, you can either go-- First of all, I would suggest they go to our Web site for the film.

That's... and there they can learn more about the families.

They can see the trailer for the film if they wanna see more, and the other thing I would suggest is for them to go to our Facebook page for the film.

They go to Facebook and look up "Certain Proof," they'll find, um, a page there and-- that will keep them informed of where the screenings are happening, and we're getting more screenings around the country, and hopefully we'll have one here in--in the fall.

I was going to ask, where would-- when is the likelihood?

In September?

We are-- we're aiming for September and somewhere here in the Triangle.

mm-hm Then people can buy copies of it, I would hope, later on.

Exactly.

At some point, we'll do that.

We're working on broader distribution right now, but for--definitely, it will be, uh, available.

What's Footpath gonna get into next?

Well, you know, Footpath is really busy right now getting "Certain Proof" out there into the world, and so we've got a few other documentaries that we've started.

One is a--a story about breast cancer, and, uh, another one is actually about the black rhino in Africa.

[laughing] So we're kind of in-- all over the spectrum, but that's what's fun about our job, is just that we get to learn all kinds of new things all the time.

Susan, what have you learned most out of working with Jeb and Colin and Kay, or what--what-- what's impacted you the most out of this experience?

You know, the moms--they-- what they do for those kids.

As a mother myself, and I became a mother while we were shooting this film actually, um, it just gives you a whole-- a whole new respect-- of their-- that perspective.

I think just the--just being able to connect with them and understand their-- their struggle and, um-- and really to--to see that there are other ways we can do this, to see that there are ways we can support them that we're not supporting them as a community right now.

You must have developed an enormous respect for these three children too, did you not?

I--I have.

They are--they're great kids, every one of 'em.

They've got wonderful personalities.

They're all funny.

They have, uh, you know, a wonderful outlook on life, given the hand that they've been dealt-- really incredible.

How long has it been in the making?

We've been working on this about four years with New Voices, and who knows how much longer we will be working on it.

We don't, you know--you don't mean to become an advocate when you start a film, but you ultimately do.

Once you spend enough time with anything, you-- you believe in it, and so-- So I don't--we may be advocating for these kids for a long time to come.

I can't think of a more noble thing to do, and I-- it's been obviously quite an experience for you personally.

It has been.

And one th at you, uh, wouldn't change at all.

No, absolutely.

No, this is not a-- not a film I probably would have chosen on my own but so pleased that it came to us.

Well, Susan Ellis, for everybody viewing this program and for thousands of people across the state, I thank you and your good husband for what you do, what you ha ve done here in making us al l aware of what go es on in the minds and hearts of these precious children who have cerebral palsy.

It's, uh, been quite thrilling to talk with you, and friends, I hope you've gotten as much out of this as I have, and I hope you've jotted down the Web site and you'll follow through.

This is a fascinating story.

Until next week, then, good night.

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